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	<title>Comments on: Tuesday questions: Local coffee ed.</title>
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	<link>http://greenlagirl.com/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/</link>
	<description>Urban environmental lifestyle blog in Los Angeles</description>
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		<title>By: Siel</title>
		<link>http://greenlagirl.com/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-4619</link>
		<dc:creator>Siel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2006 06:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenlagirl.com/2006/05/16/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/#comment-4619</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the pics, JIm! I&#039;m especially fascinated by the methane/pond-warming photo :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the pics, JIm! I&#8217;m especially fascinated by the methane/pond-warming photo :)</p>
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		<title>By: JIm</title>
		<link>http://greenlagirl.com/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-4456</link>
		<dc:creator>JIm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 May 2006 03:34:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenlagirl.com/2006/05/16/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/#comment-4456</guid>
		<description>Well... I&#039;m all done here. I&#039;m teaching a course on home espresso in a few weeks and I&#039;ll be sure to talk about all the &quot;sustainable&quot; options for consumers out there.

In closing, here are some of my photos of a trip I took to an organic FT cooperative in Costa Rica:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jim1992/sets/72057594079942604/

Bye.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well&#8230; I&#8217;m all done here. I&#8217;m teaching a course on home espresso in a few weeks and I&#8217;ll be sure to talk about all the &#8220;sustainable&#8221; options for consumers out there.</p>
<p>In closing, here are some of my photos of a trip I took to an organic FT cooperative in Costa Rica:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jim1992/sets/72057594079942604/" rel="nofollow">http://www.flickr.com/photos/jim1992/sets/72057594079942604/</a></p>
<p>Bye.</p>
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		<title>By: Fletch</title>
		<link>http://greenlagirl.com/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-4445</link>
		<dc:creator>Fletch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 May 2006 23:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenlagirl.com/2006/05/16/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/#comment-4445</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll echo Siel here and reiterate that the post regards sustainable coffee, not necessarily fair trade coffee. To the extent the two concepts overlap, however, consider the following points. Fair trade is a second-best policy for economic fairness for the very poor. Indeed, a first-best policy would be unions, worker health and safety regulations, and charitable contributions from the developed world. Clearly, we don&#039;t see much evidence that this is occurring in the real world. I&#039;m also wary about relying upon auctions to solve the problem of an imbalance in bargaining power. I believe that it would be more likely that middlemen and others would participate here rather than low-skilled peasants. I might be wrong, but I need more evidence to convince me.

From my perspective, as a consumer, fair-trade-certified coffee offers transparency. As I&#039;ve stated over and over, if a company deals with a roaster in the spirit of fair trade (even, perhaps, exceeding Transfair standards) that&#039;s fine, but the consumer is left confused and at the mercy of believing the company line on the veracity of its claims. Your gain, Jim, in other words, is our loss. Yes, the certification fee is a bitch, but it buys an informed client base.

Finally, it goes without saying that all coffee has to meet quality standards. You&#039;re beating up a straw man, Jim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll echo Siel here and reiterate that the post regards sustainable coffee, not necessarily fair trade coffee. To the extent the two concepts overlap, however, consider the following points. Fair trade is a second-best policy for economic fairness for the very poor. Indeed, a first-best policy would be unions, worker health and safety regulations, and charitable contributions from the developed world. Clearly, we don&#8217;t see much evidence that this is occurring in the real world. I&#8217;m also wary about relying upon auctions to solve the problem of an imbalance in bargaining power. I believe that it would be more likely that middlemen and others would participate here rather than low-skilled peasants. I might be wrong, but I need more evidence to convince me.</p>
<p>From my perspective, as a consumer, fair-trade-certified coffee offers transparency. As I&#8217;ve stated over and over, if a company deals with a roaster in the spirit of fair trade (even, perhaps, exceeding Transfair standards) that&#8217;s fine, but the consumer is left confused and at the mercy of believing the company line on the veracity of its claims. Your gain, Jim, in other words, is our loss. Yes, the certification fee is a bitch, but it buys an informed client base.</p>
<p>Finally, it goes without saying that all coffee has to meet quality standards. You&#8217;re beating up a straw man, Jim.</p>
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		<title>By: JIm</title>
		<link>http://greenlagirl.com/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-4379</link>
		<dc:creator>JIm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 May 2006 02:12:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenlagirl.com/2006/05/16/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/#comment-4379</guid>
		<description>Yes, I am an odd one.  And no, at this point my comments will have little to do with the original post. Forgive me.

â€œtreating people fairly is good for bizâ€¦â€

Sure I agree, but please donâ€™t call it sustainable.  A price floor is not a sustainable economic instrument.

I think there are better ways than the Fair Trade certification to achieve the ends WE want. As a bare minimum, FT is ok but it really isnâ€™t enough!

Please, everyone, take time to read the histories and results of programs like the Cup of Excellence and Q-Auctions. They speak for themselves. Look at the farmers wining these auctions. Look at how a small farm doesnâ€™t need to change its organizational structure or pay a fee to participate.  And these farmers are making WELL over FTâ€™s guarantee, and they are earning it.

I wish programs like these had the dedicated grassroots support of people like you behind them.

I am in a position where I buy 100 or so pounds of coffee a week.  Most households only buy one.  Quality was the first concern of mine when choosing a roaster.  Sustainable and ethical practices were a VERY close second.  It is nice that the roaster I chose offered Fair Trade coffees, but my concerns sure didnâ€™t stop there. The FT stamp is for my not-so-savvy customers, but when it comes to truly supporting sustainable and ethical practices I need more assurance.

I wanted a roaster that buys direct from originâ€¦ one that is committed to creating relationships with growers for mutual benefit.  One that can afford to pay over FT guarantees to farmers because their clients are willing to pay a premium for quality.

I have never felt better about doing business with a company. They even arranged for me to visit a farm in Costa Rica when I was there on vacation.

Our roaster?
www.counterculturecoffee.com

I do better supporting them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I am an odd one.  And no, at this point my comments will have little to do with the original post. Forgive me.</p>
<p>â€œtreating people fairly is good for bizâ€¦â€</p>
<p>Sure I agree, but please donâ€™t call it sustainable.  A price floor is not a sustainable economic instrument.</p>
<p>I think there are better ways than the Fair Trade certification to achieve the ends WE want. As a bare minimum, FT is ok but it really isnâ€™t enough!</p>
<p>Please, everyone, take time to read the histories and results of programs like the Cup of Excellence and Q-Auctions. They speak for themselves. Look at the farmers wining these auctions. Look at how a small farm doesnâ€™t need to change its organizational structure or pay a fee to participate.  And these farmers are making WELL over FTâ€™s guarantee, and they are earning it.</p>
<p>I wish programs like these had the dedicated grassroots support of people like you behind them.</p>
<p>I am in a position where I buy 100 or so pounds of coffee a week.  Most households only buy one.  Quality was the first concern of mine when choosing a roaster.  Sustainable and ethical practices were a VERY close second.  It is nice that the roaster I chose offered Fair Trade coffees, but my concerns sure didnâ€™t stop there. The FT stamp is for my not-so-savvy customers, but when it comes to truly supporting sustainable and ethical practices I need more assurance.</p>
<p>I wanted a roaster that buys direct from originâ€¦ one that is committed to creating relationships with growers for mutual benefit.  One that can afford to pay over FT guarantees to farmers because their clients are willing to pay a premium for quality.</p>
<p>I have never felt better about doing business with a company. They even arranged for me to visit a farm in Costa Rica when I was there on vacation.</p>
<p>Our roaster?<br />
<a href="http://www.counterculturecoffee.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.counterculturecoffee.com</a></p>
<p>I do better supporting them.</p>
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		<title>By: Buji</title>
		<link>http://greenlagirl.com/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-4352</link>
		<dc:creator>Buji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 May 2006 22:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenlagirl.com/2006/05/16/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/#comment-4352</guid>
		<description>Interesting comment: &quot;Relying on the guilt or conscience of consumers isnâ€™t productive. Award good farming, pay top dollar for your green beansâ€¦ the public responds to quality.&quot;

Fair Trade is about getting money to the farmers.  You can pay top dollar for your green beans, and still not know where the money is going.  That is why Fair Trade is important. That is why consumers (and retailers) want the seal/claim. While Trans-Fair and the movement in genral isn&#039;t perfect, it provides accountability, less exploitation, and a springboard for consumer awareness.  The invisible hand doesn&#039;t work when you have a huge difference in power... which is why the price floors on coffee make the difference for farmers, especially in impoverished countries. 

You are absolutely right that the public responds to quality, but the definition of a quality cup is changing.  So is consumer demand.  There is a reason companies like Wal Mart and Micky D&#039;s are pouring tons of money into CRS. And why companies like Costco and Patagonia are doing so well.  People are sick of companies that are just in it for the buck.  Turns out that treating people fairly is good for biz... and pretty darn sustainable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting comment: &#8220;Relying on the guilt or conscience of consumers isnâ€™t productive. Award good farming, pay top dollar for your green beansâ€¦ the public responds to quality.&#8221;</p>
<p>Fair Trade is about getting money to the farmers.  You can pay top dollar for your green beans, and still not know where the money is going.  That is why Fair Trade is important. That is why consumers (and retailers) want the seal/claim. While Trans-Fair and the movement in genral isn&#8217;t perfect, it provides accountability, less exploitation, and a springboard for consumer awareness.  The invisible hand doesn&#8217;t work when you have a huge difference in power&#8230; which is why the price floors on coffee make the difference for farmers, especially in impoverished countries. </p>
<p>You are absolutely right that the public responds to quality, but the definition of a quality cup is changing.  So is consumer demand.  There is a reason companies like Wal Mart and Micky D&#8217;s are pouring tons of money into CRS. And why companies like Costco and Patagonia are doing so well.  People are sick of companies that are just in it for the buck.  Turns out that treating people fairly is good for biz&#8230; and pretty darn sustainable.</p>
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		<title>By: Siel</title>
		<link>http://greenlagirl.com/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-4341</link>
		<dc:creator>Siel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 May 2006 21:29:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenlagirl.com/2006/05/16/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/#comment-4341</guid>
		<description>Again, I have no idea what your comments here have to actually do with the original post. Like I said, Groundwork is not a fair trade licensee, so I&#039;m confused about your short diatribe against fair trade, followed by a half-recant: &quot;I don&#039;t think fair trade is bad.&quot; You&#039;re an odd one, JIm :P

That said, I think that my &lt;a href=&quot;http://greenlagirl.com/2006/05/18/coffee-crisis-110-quality-isnt-always-rewarded/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;post today about quality coffee&lt;/a&gt; might answer some of your questions. Also, I&#039;d like to point out that a large part of fair trade is about education, both at the consumer and producer level. Your suggestion about educating coffee farmers to improve the quality of their coffee is very much in line with fair trade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, I have no idea what your comments here have to actually do with the original post. Like I said, Groundwork is not a fair trade licensee, so I&#8217;m confused about your short diatribe against fair trade, followed by a half-recant: &#8220;I don&#8217;t think fair trade is bad.&#8221; You&#8217;re an odd one, JIm :P</p>
<p>That said, I think that my <a href="http://greenlagirl.com/2006/05/18/coffee-crisis-110-quality-isnt-always-rewarded/" rel="nofollow">post today about quality coffee</a> might answer some of your questions. Also, I&#8217;d like to point out that a large part of fair trade is about education, both at the consumer and producer level. Your suggestion about educating coffee farmers to improve the quality of their coffee is very much in line with fair trade.</p>
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		<title>By: JIm</title>
		<link>http://greenlagirl.com/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-4312</link>
		<dc:creator>JIm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 May 2006 12:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenlagirl.com/2006/05/16/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/#comment-4312</guid>
		<description>Correction, the Q Auction program is headed by CQI, not the SCAA.

THIS is how farms will get sustainable premiums:

http://www.coffeeinstitute.org/q_auction.asp

http://www.cupofexcellence.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction, the Q Auction program is headed by CQI, not the SCAA.</p>
<p>THIS is how farms will get sustainable premiums:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.coffeeinstitute.org/q_auction.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.coffeeinstitute.org/q_auction.asp</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.cupofexcellence.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.cupofexcellence.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: JIm</title>
		<link>http://greenlagirl.com/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-4299</link>
		<dc:creator>JIm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 May 2006 05:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenlagirl.com/2006/05/16/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/#comment-4299</guid>
		<description>Disinformation? I just don&#039;t understand how a price floor could be considered sustainable?  I don&#039;t understand the association of Fair Trade and sustainability... I consider the association of the two disinformation.  Like the pre-war association of Iraq and Al-Quaeda, get it? 

If you want to help Nicaraguan farmers, don&#039;t prop them up so they  can compete with Viet Nam by giving them what ammounts to a private subsidy.  Teach them to produce coffee for specialty markets... let their coffee compete in terms of it&#039;s quality.  That is REAL market value.  That&#039;s sustainable.

If Groundwork roasts, they could get involved with the SCAA&#039;s Q-Auction program, or the Cup of Excellence auctions.  They&#039;d be better off providing their customers with the best coffee they can get their hands on.  Relying on the guilt or conscience of consumers isn&#039;t productive.  Award good farming, pay top dollar for your green beans... the public responds to quality.

And no, I don&#039;t think Fair Trade is bad...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Disinformation? I just don&#8217;t understand how a price floor could be considered sustainable?  I don&#8217;t understand the association of Fair Trade and sustainability&#8230; I consider the association of the two disinformation.  Like the pre-war association of Iraq and Al-Quaeda, get it? </p>
<p>If you want to help Nicaraguan farmers, don&#8217;t prop them up so they  can compete with Viet Nam by giving them what ammounts to a private subsidy.  Teach them to produce coffee for specialty markets&#8230; let their coffee compete in terms of it&#8217;s quality.  That is REAL market value.  That&#8217;s sustainable.</p>
<p>If Groundwork roasts, they could get involved with the SCAA&#8217;s Q-Auction program, or the Cup of Excellence auctions.  They&#8217;d be better off providing their customers with the best coffee they can get their hands on.  Relying on the guilt or conscience of consumers isn&#8217;t productive.  Award good farming, pay top dollar for your green beans&#8230; the public responds to quality.</p>
<p>And no, I don&#8217;t think Fair Trade is bad&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Siel</title>
		<link>http://greenlagirl.com/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-4273</link>
		<dc:creator>Siel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 18:08:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenlagirl.com/2006/05/16/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/#comment-4273</guid>
		<description>JIm -- I&#039;m not sure you actually read the post -- or any other recent posts -- before commenting. I just re-read the post -- and it says nothing about fair trade CERTIFICATION. First of all, Groundwork Coffee, which I support, is not currently a fair trade licensee. Secondly, I just posted about Jones Coffee, a coffee shop I recommend despite the fact that their coffee isn&#039;t fair trade certified. Third, TFUSA is in Oakland, not Berkeley :P

I can understand how some coffee companies may get frustrated by customers who are unclear as to what the fair trade sticker actually means -- something I&#039;d like to think I&#039;m at least working to clarify through the &lt;a href=&quot;http://greenlagirl.com/2005/08/02/coffee-crisis-series-a-collection/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Coffee Crisis Series&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://greenlagirl.com/2006/03/21/fair-trade-certification-challenges-a-collection/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Certification Challenges series&lt;/a&gt;. 

I&#039;m not sure that out-of-nowhere, riddled-with-misinfo statements like yours do anything to help &quot;un-do the disinformation.&quot; To be taken seriously, I recommend that you at least consider accuracy in constructing your arguments, and give some thought to what views the person you&#039;re critiquing may actually hold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JIm &#8212; I&#8217;m not sure you actually read the post &#8212; or any other recent posts &#8212; before commenting. I just re-read the post &#8212; and it says nothing about fair trade CERTIFICATION. First of all, Groundwork Coffee, which I support, is not currently a fair trade licensee. Secondly, I just posted about Jones Coffee, a coffee shop I recommend despite the fact that their coffee isn&#8217;t fair trade certified. Third, TFUSA is in Oakland, not Berkeley :P</p>
<p>I can understand how some coffee companies may get frustrated by customers who are unclear as to what the fair trade sticker actually means &#8212; something I&#8217;d like to think I&#8217;m at least working to clarify through the <a href="http://greenlagirl.com/2005/08/02/coffee-crisis-series-a-collection/" rel="nofollow">Coffee Crisis Series</a> and <a href="http://greenlagirl.com/2006/03/21/fair-trade-certification-challenges-a-collection/" rel="nofollow">Certification Challenges series</a>. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure that out-of-nowhere, riddled-with-misinfo statements like yours do anything to help &#8220;un-do the disinformation.&#8221; To be taken seriously, I recommend that you at least consider accuracy in constructing your arguments, and give some thought to what views the person you&#8217;re critiquing may actually hold.</p>
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		<title>By: Gillian</title>
		<link>http://greenlagirl.com/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/comment-page-1/#comment-4270</link>
		<dc:creator>Gillian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 17:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenlagirl.com/2006/05/16/tuesday-questions-local-coffee-ed/#comment-4270</guid>
		<description>Yeah, great ideas!  Let&#039;s get FTLA involved in this!  Let&#039;s see if we can integrate some events with them.

Hey Jim, what are your ideas?  Do you think Fair Trade is a bad thing?  Do you have a better solution? What do you mean by the &quot;disinformation of the FT grassroots campaign&quot;?  Care to expound?  Email me directly if you don&#039;t want to repost: gillianmleslie@yahoo.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, great ideas!  Let&#8217;s get FTLA involved in this!  Let&#8217;s see if we can integrate some events with them.</p>
<p>Hey Jim, what are your ideas?  Do you think Fair Trade is a bad thing?  Do you have a better solution? What do you mean by the &#8220;disinformation of the FT grassroots campaign&#8221;?  Care to expound?  Email me directly if you don&#8217;t want to repost: <a href="mailto:gillianmleslie@yahoo.com">gillianmleslie@yahoo.com</a></p>
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